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« Away days | Main | Reprisals on Muslims »

July 08, 2005

Comments

cahincaha

I very much agree with you. What else can be said... it is so sad. These people are harming humanity as a whole. So-called "radicals" harm islam and muslims. But they harm everybody else as well. The point is not saying again and again that this is against everything islam teaches us. It's just plain crime. That's all. Doing it in the name of God... subhan Allah I can't find the words.

Atheist

"We must avoid, at all costs, arguments of moral equivalence. Thse are easy arguments to slip into. I do it frequently. If X is bombing Iraqis, Y is murdering Chechens, and Z is causing countless injustices to Palestinians, ought our response be to kill indiscriminately -- believing as we do that we will be accounted for each action -- without any sense, rhyme or reason?"

The arguments of moral equivalence fail for more than just the aforementioned reason. What about plots unearthed to blow up stuff in France and Germany, nations which opposed the Iraq invasion ? And what about those Nepalis beheaded in Iraq ? That didn't seem to have been provoked by any "injustice." Indeed, anyone who tries to indulge in such a rationalization should also, if he/she is not being hypocritical, rationalize the post-Godhra events in Gujarat. I'm glad you didn't slip into such a rationalization, because, finally, all violence (especially that directed at civilians) is abhorrent. Period.

AlHamdulllilah

"I suppose, this knee-jerk reaction would be understandable to a degree."

More than understandable, more like good security policy. Since your 'brothers and sisters' have been, and are presently, plotting terrorist attacks, and since you will not fight, with us, against them, then you are part of the problem, shielding information that could help save lives.

It's so ridiculous that after one of these attacks, all you prolific Muslims blog madly about how the backlash has started. You get so upset with the non Muslims who now rightly look at you suspiciously. Why not, instead, turn that anger towards where it right belongs: to the majority in your so called faith that are kidnapping the complete religion and turning it into a murder cult.

While I support all the actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and reduced freedoms for Muslims, I also agree that all of these actions in totality will not solve the fundamentalism problem. Only within Islam, can this problem be resolved. The well justified fear is that there is no one person or group within the Islam community who is strong enough to try and fight the quite large fundamentalist body. Or who has even tried to put up a whimper of a fight.

And, by the way, this conspicuous lack of effort, is very obvious to the West. Hence, why all of you are being viewed with suspicion. Don't blame us for the obvious... heal thyself... prove that you can clean your own house.

kactuz

Let me explain why this kaffir is very skeptical about all the Muslims 'condemnations of terror'. I can even sympathize with the fact that the sincerity of Muslims is often questioned, and even their loyalty. This is certainly a difficult issue, being condemned a priori.

I do not know what is in the hearts and minds of any Muslim. God only knows. I do know what Muslim's do where they are a majority, and I do see the strength of radicalism in Muslim communities in the West. It seems when a radical and a moderate meet and talk, the radical wins - he has a better understanding of Islam, I guess. The fact is that wherever Islam dominates, other religions as well as women and other groups are discriminated against and persecuted. Period.

So, based upon these simple facts, We - the people of the West - have every right to doubt your honesty, sincerity or even your understanding of Islam. We cannot put our women, our children and our civilization in jeopardy just because something hurts your feelings. Tough! Based upon Islamic websites, there is no doubt that if Muslims ever control a Western country, out goes personal freedom, and in comes sharia law, persecution, hate, anger, killings, and all the other things that bring such joy to the hearts of so many Muslims.

So, I couldn't care less what Muslims say or how many times they condemn terror. The only valid clue to what Muslims really believe is how they treat people where they are a majority. And it ain't a pretty picture. In case you haven't noticed, they don't even treat other Muslims very well. So quit blaming it on everybody else and take a good, hard look at your religion, your writings and even the life of your prophet.

When Islamic coutries permit Christian and Buddhist missionaries to walk the streets of Libya and Iran,when non-Muslims have exactly the same rights as Muslims do in all Islamic countries, when women can drive and vote in Arabia, when Copts are not killed and kidnapped by Muslims in Eqypt, when people can openly criticize the life of Mohammud, when men who commit honor slayings are condemned to 30 years, etc... (you get the idea) THEN and only then can we talk about your hurt feelings, and maybe we can even assume that Muslims are really against terror.

thabet

To #3:

Your obvious lack of ability to think about things is a shame to the very Western traditions you claim to defend. The same Western traditions that have spawned great thinkers like Ockham, Aquinas, Calvin, Erasmus, Hume, Kant, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche... You are no defender of "the West" or its humanist traditions. You're just an idiot with access to the internet.

thabet

kactuzkid:

"...I do see the strength of radicalism in Muslim communities in the West."

Given that you "do not know what is in the hearts and minds of any Muslim" how can you then say you know about the "strength of radicalism in Muslim communities in the West"? How and, more importantly, through what method do you gauge this "radicalism"?

The rest of what you have to say requires no necessary response as it is probably an attempt to mimic a dream sequence a la Rushdie, but instead looks like bad GCSE writing from a 16-year old.

Atheist

" ... strength of radicalism in Muslim communities in the West"? How and, more importantly, through what method do you gauge this "radicalism"? "

Dunno about him, but I do know a couple of lapsed Muslims. What they say doesn't paint a pretty picture in the least.

It's also revealing that in most Islamic forums that I go, every debate is framed in terms of believers Vs crusaders/zionists/shirks/kufrs. Free speech does guarantee the right to express and propound such points of view, but if such a sentiment is prevalent amongst the majority (and we're talking about kids raised in the West here), one really wonders how assimilated the Islamic community is. What's needed is greater tolerance for dissent within the community (instead of,for example, calling Irshad Manji a zionist prostitite), as well as for external criticism (the Rushdie affair). Exactly the same standards that everyone else is expected to follow in the West. If and when that happens, that'll be the first sign of true assimilation.

Atheist

Just to clarify, I've called Rushdie's criticism/fantasy/whatever external criticism as he's not a practising Muslim, AFAIK, unlike Manji.

AlHamdullilah

thabet, ad hominem attacks are the sure sign of a defeated debater. You lost before you started. I, too, can rattle off names, but what's your point? That you can 'think about things'? Is that the extent of your articulation?

Wow, we're all blown away by your sheer intellect. Try to at least make a point next time... otherwise you make this forum look like the Internet with access to an idiot.

thabet

I would dearly love to "debate" some points. However, I saw no points to debate. Thanks for the comments.

thabet

Atheist:

"Dunno about him, but I do know a couple of lapsed Muslims. What they say doesn't paint a pretty picture in the least."

I can't speak for these "lapsed Muslims", obviously. I know people who are not Muslims (far from it) and they don't paint pretty pictures of situations/attitudes where they come from. What is your point? Human beings are not always particularly nice creatures? I'll agree with you on that one.

"It's also revealing that in most Islamic forums that I go, every debate is framed in terms of believers Vs crusaders/zionists/shirks/kufrs."

All doctrinal religions will usually debate their questions in terms of believers/non-believers. Unless your point is a general critique of such religions (which is a useful point of discussion, but a totally separate one), why are Muslims being singled out for this sort of criticism? Sure, some Muslims get over-excited with their language. So do people who are not Muslims. I don't necessarily regard internet forums as the final word on what "others" are thinking as tactics are often used which distort views (e.g. by using multiple ids).

"...(and we're talking about kids raised in the West here), one really wonders how assimilated the Islamic community is."

Well, one wonders what "assimilation" means. Coming close to flouting Godwin's Law, I will note that the Jews of 1930s Europe were far better integrated and assimilated than Muslims today. You can fill in the rest of the history. Arthur Hertzberg's _The French Enlightenment and the Jews_ points to the problems with this call for "assimilation" from visible minorities. However, I don't see how so-called "Islamic forums" can be used to gauge what the "majority" are thinking. Do the "majority" of Muslims use "Islamic forums"? Probably not. Again, if you're going to tell me that there are Muslims who will cheer on senseless violence, you have no argument from me on that one. I've made this quite clear in this post and in others.

"What's needed is greater tolerance for dissent within the community (instead of,for example, calling Irshad Manji a zionist prostitite), as well as for external criticism (the Rushdie affair)."

Well, I should make the first note that one need not read Rushdie's book as "external criticism" of anything other than an attack on racism and religious hypocrisy in parts of the world (primarily British racism and the attidues of religious authorities in the Indian subcontinent an Iran). What people forget was that before Khomeini decided to wave his hands and issue his verdict (there are questions as to whether he actually did it, or someone on his behalf), Muslims in the UK who were aggreived by this book were exercising their right to protest. You should be happy that tried to use the democratic process, by petitioning their MPs and organising demonstrations. In the aftermath of this whole affair, some Muslim writers -- even those with "liberal" views -- found their views marginalised and ignored by acts of self-censorship from the press. What happened to "free" speech and "external/internal" criticism then? Instead, some so-called "liberal" writers were given free-reign to express insulting, abusive and outright racist comments.

I would not deny that greater tolerance of other views is needed (it is needed even "free" societies). A number of Muslims have made similar comments so you're not the first to say so. However, what often happens is that if the "dissent" is fashionable any constructive critique of it is dismissed as "reactionary". This has happened in the case of Manji (whose book, I am afraid to say, is poor; I've read a lot better).

"If and when that happens, that'll be the first sign of true assimilation."

I am happy to say I reject calls for assimilation. Participation is a better way forward. And it isn't just Muslims who might be stopped from such a route. Can you honestly say that if all prejudices were eliminated today in "the West" we would be living in the same sort of societies?

Thanks for the comments and keeping them largely clear of asinine remarks.

My personal rule is that I usually only engage in my comments box twice with anyone individual. Feel free to respond here, but do not feel I am ignoring you if I do not reply back. If there are some comments I feel are worth entertaining, I often try and flesh it out in another post.

AlHamdullilah

Thabet, your attempt at self-portrayal of an intellectual failed miserably. I'm actually happy with your personal rule... it means we won't be bored silly with any further rambling posts from 'you'. Just because you read a few books you don't really understand doesn't entitle you to an Internet granted BA.

'Some Muslims get over excited with their language'???? Are you absolutely drowning in your dementia inducing kool-aid? Have you been awake in the last few years? Have you missed the CNN video of Iran senate screaming "Death to America" like a bunch of robotic lunatics. Your type of apologist rhetoric with this 'over-excited' nonsense is clearly part of the problem... the funny thing is your faux intellectual type is the first that the radical Muslims would do away with.

thabet

As all rules have exceptions...

I am happy to admit that I am not an "intellectual". I have never claimed this title, and would not wish to do so. Thank you for your help in clearing this up. I could, however, never accuse you of being an "intellect(ual)".

"...it means we won't be bored silly with any further rambling posts from 'you'."

Of course. I apologise. Next time I force 'you' to surf to this website I will try and ensure you're kept entertained with flashing lights and dancing girls.

"Have you missed the CNN video of Iran senate screaming "Death to America" like a bunch of robotic lunatics"

I am a Muslim: so why ask me when you already know that all Muslims believe any CNN footage is made up by the CIA or Mossad?

Sorry, must stop boring you further. Au revoir.

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